In a virtual, podcast book club designed with the introverted readers of the world in mind, we explore Loveless by Alice Oseman. Discussing themes of self love and being queer, Lexi is joined by Lucy to respond to questions about the book and to make a space for the readers who want to be a part of a book club in a less-than-traditional way.

Books By The Fire- A Book Club Podcast Transcript

Lexi00:00

Welcome to your readers. I’m your host Lexi. And today we will be discussing Loveless by Alice Oseman. I’m joined virtually with Lucy, a close friend of mine who is just as excited as I am to be talking about this book. But before we begin, let’s listen to a section of it being read by Oseman.

Alice00:11

Okay. First chapter is called last chance.

There were literally three separate couples sitting around the fire, making out like some sort of organized kissing orgy. And half of me was like, Ew. And the other half was like, wow, I sure do wish. That was me to be fair. It is probably what I should have expected from our prom after party. I don’t go to parties very often.

I hadn’t been aware this actually was the culture. I retreated from the fire pit and headed back towards that Jorgenson’s giant country house, holding up my prom dress in one hand. So I didn’t trip and dropped PIP a message, Georgia war. I could not approach the fire and retrieve the marshmallows because there were people kissing around it.

Phillipa Quintana. How could you betray and disappoint me like this Georgia, Georgia war? Do you still love me or is this the end? When I entered the kitchen and located PIP, she was leaning against a corner cupboard with a plastic cup full of wine in one hand. And her phone in the other, her tie was half tucked into her shirt pocket. Her burgundy velvet blazer was now unbuttoned and her short curls were fluffy and loose. No doubt due to all the dancing at prom, you okay. I asked might be a tad drunk. She said her toter show glasses slipping down her nose. and also I do fucking love you more than marshmallows. How could you ask me to make such a choice? I slung my arm around her shoulders and we leaned back together against the kitchen cupboards. It was almost midnight. Music was thumping from hat’s living room and the sound of our classmates chatting and laughing and shouting and screaming resonated from every corner of the building. There were three separate couples making out around the fire. I said like in unison, Kinky said PIP. I sort of wished I was one of them. She gave me a look. Ew. I just want to kiss someone I said, which is odd because I wasn’t even drunk. I was driving PIP and Jason home later, we can make out if you want that. Wasn’t what I had in mind. Well, Jason’s been single for a few months now. I’m sure he’d be up for it. Shut up. I’m serious. I was serious. I really, really wanted to kiss someone. I wanted to feel a little bit of prom night magic. Tell me, then said PIP, raising an eyebrow. And smilingly maybe it’s time to confess. I’d only ever had a crush on one person. His name was Toby. He was the hot boy of our school year. The one who could actually have been a model if he wanted. He was tall and skinny and conventionally attractive in a Timothy Chamee sort of way though. I didn’t really understand why everyone was in love with Tim Charee. I had a theory that a lot of people’s celebrity crushes were faked just to fit in. Tommy had been my crush ever since I was in year seven and a girl had asked me, who do you think is the hottest boy at true? she showed me a photo on her phone of a group of the most popular year, seven boys at the boy’s grandma over the road. And there was Tommy right in the middle. I could tell he was the most attractive one. I mean, he had hair like a boy band star and was dressed pretty fashionably. So I pointed at him and said him, and I guess that was that almost seven years later, I’d never actually talked to Tommy. I never even really wanted to probably because I was shy, he was more of an abstract concept. He was hot. He was my crash. Nothing was gonna happen between us and I was perfectly fine with that. I snorted at PIP, obviously knocked Tommy. Why not? You like him? I just shrub at PIP and she dropped the discussion PIP and I started to walk out of the kitchen arms, still slung around each other and into the hallway of hat. Hanson’s fancy country home. People were slumped on the floor, in the corridor, in the prom dresses and Ts cups and food scattered around two people were kissing on the stairs. And I looked at them for a moment unsure whether it was disgusting or whether it was the most romantic thing I’d ever seen in my life. Probably the former, you know what I want Hipp said, as we stumbled into Hatties conservatory and collapsed onto a sofa, but that’s it. I want someone to spontaneously perform a song to declare their love for me. What. She gave this some thought your song from Mullan Rouge. She said, God, I am sad, gay and alone, solid song choice, but not as attainable as a kiss. PIP rolled her eyes. If you want to kiss someone that much, just go talk to Tommy. You’ve liked him for seven years. This is your last chance before we go to uni. she might have had a point if it was going to be anyone, it was going to be Tommy. But the idea of filled me with dread. I folded my arms. Maybe I could kiss a stranger instead. Fuck off. I’m serious. Now you are not, you’re not like that. You don’t know what I’m like. Yes, I do said PIP. I know you more than anyone. She was. About knowing me and about me not being like that. And about tonight being my last chance to confess the crush I’d had for seven years and the last chance to kiss someone while I was still a school kid, while I had a chance to feel the teenage dream excitement and youthful magic that everyone else seemed to have had a little taste of. It was my last chance to feel that. So maybe I would have to bite the bullet and kiss Tommy after all.

Lexi03:06

Okay. So first of all, how are you

Lucy03:07

doing. I am doing pretty well. How are you?

Lexi03:09

I’m doing right. Yeah. What made you read this book and did it live up to the expectations?

Lucy03:14

Definitely a couple different things made me read this book.

Um, I feel like the first one is obvious. I heard about the representation that this book had and I was just like, okay, of course I have to read it. Of course. I haven’t seen this pretty much anywhere else. That’s so exciting. And of course I knew Oseman from heart stopper. So that was already a really promising start.

I knew how she handles sensitive topics. I knew how she handles representation. It made me really excited.

Lexi03:29

I would have to say it’s pretty much the same for me because it’s just, this sort of representation is very uncommon. It’s getting there, but you know, there’s still a lot of work. I would definitely say it lived up to my expectations.

Actually it probably surpassed them, definitely surpassed them. And so what did you feel was the main theme of the book and what should readers be taking away from it?

Lucy03:43

I feel like for me, most of what I got was a sense of self discovery and kind of learning to be comfortable in your own skin. Maybe figuring out what your own skin is

even. I, I think. What readers should be taking away from. It is mostly along the lines of you can’t decide for yourself who you are. You can’t impose that decision on yourself, but that’s okay. Because no matter who you are, people will love you. Regardless.

Lexi03:59

I like that. Yeah, when I was reading it, I definitely felt like it was almost a love story to yourself.

Lucy04:04

Definitely. I like that a lot.

Lexi04:05

And agreed. You can’t be imposing what you think you should be on yourself. You can’t really choose who you are. You can make the choice to love yourself and accept who you are.

Lucy04:11

Absolutely.

Lexi04:12

Other people can accept who you are as well. And it definitely shows that in the book, but yeah.

So I think that should be the reader’s biggest takeaway when reading Loveless.

Lucy04:18

Yeah, I absolutely agree.

Lexi04:19

What would you say your favorite part of the book was?

Lucy04:21

I don’t know that I had one single favorite part, but I think something that really stood out to me was I really love the story between Georgia and Jason.

I thought that was so special because you see a lot of stories about unrequited love and you see a lot of, you know, how it feels to be the person who’s in love with someone, but you never see it from the other end. And to see that playing out from the end of the person, who’s not in love with someone who wishes that she was in love with this person, but who can’t make herself feel that way.

I thought it was really profound almost, and the way they were able to reconcile that and keep their friendship was very special. To me,

Lexi04:44

it was heartbreaking. Almost watching her go. I love this person, but I’m not in love with this person. I. Why am I not in love with this

person?

Lucy04:49

And trying to find the difference between those two?

Lexi04:51

Exactly. But at the same time it was, it was actually quite heartwarming seeing there’s so many different types of love, and it’s actually quite obvious that these two people love each other. It’s not a small thing to be able to say, I love this person. It’s just, sometimes you have to figure out what type of love.

And I think that’s what was going on with Georgia.

Lucy05:02

Exactly. It’s still a love story and that’s what really made it special to me that didn’t take away that aspect of it. It just kind of changed the perspective it was from.

Lexi05:07

Did you have a least favorite scene?

Lucy05:09

Again, there’s not one scene where I was like, oh, you know, I don’t know about this, but I was really, really apprehensive when Georgia started trying to date Jason, I, I feel like I’ve read a lot of books where I’ve.

Oh, this could be a kind of dynamic I could really get into. And I saw that with Georgia and Jason, and then when they started to do that, I was like, well, here we go again. You know? So, you know, looking back, it’s absolutely not a least favorite, but at the time I was nervous about how that was going to play out.

I think I was texting you about it. Like, I don’t know. I don’t want this.

Lexi05:29

. Yeah, that was definitely an interesting one to read. I would have to say that my least favorite scene was during the party with Georgia’s kiss.

Lucy05:35

Oh, that’s actually a very good one. Yeah.

Lexi05:36

Alice Oseman did a fantastic job writing it. It had all of the ever and.

Absolutely hated it because I knew what was going to happen. She did a fantastic job with all of the, like the, the foreshadowing and leading up to it.

Lucy05:45

Yes.

Lexi05:46

And I hated every second in best way possible.

Lucy05:48

That was a tough one for me as well, especially to hear that description of the kiss, it was so uncomfortable and I think exactly the way it was supposed to be.

But as someone who probably would’ve felt exactly the same way in that situation, it was a lot to read

Lexi05:58

. Was there a specific scene that really stuck with you that wasn’t necessarily a favorite or a least favorite?

Lucy06:01

I really, really liked the part leading up to the end where we see Rooney coming to bring Georgia flowers.

I thought that was so heartwarming and it was so sweet. I think friends should bring each other flowers more often as a declaration of still commitment to each other. Even if they’re, even if they’re friends and not romantically involved or anything, I thought that was so nice. And to see it kind of cut off George’s little panic spiral that she was having in such a nice way.

Like, don’t worry. The world’s not ending, actually things are good for you.

Lexi06:20

Yeah, that was definitely, oh gosh, that was a heart wrenching scene.

Lucy06:22

Oh yeah.

Lexi06:23

I felt like I was going into an emotional spiral as

Lucy06:25

and absolutely

Lexi06:27

it’s a little difficult because all of my friends are in other countries right now, but I think I need to bring them some flowers as well.

Lucy06:32

I’ll, I’ll ship you some flowers from all the way over here.

Lexi06:34

Fantastic. Looking forward to it. I think the specific scene that really stuck out to me was the one where Georgia was kind. Really discovering the terms, asexual a romantic. Um, and at one point she mentioned demisexual for me, that was such a big moment because I’ve never once heard that mentioned in media and it hits very close to home.

So even though it was just absolutely one line, I think it was, I still don’t know what demisexual means. The fact that it was mentioned at all was just mind blowing.

Lucy06:57

Yeah, you really don’t see that a lot. Right? It was. I, I remember reading that too and thinking, wow, you know, that’s a word you don’t see and print a lot.

Lexi07:01

Yeah, exactly. I’m hoping that for other people they’ll see it and go, Hmm. I wonder what this is and start doing their own research and maybe we can start seeing some more of that.

Lucy07:08

Yeah. Yeah. It’s probably gonna prompt a lot of Google searches.

Lexi07:09

We’ve both mentioned representation. Now, how would you describe your experience?

Reading this as a ace aro person yourself? How would you describe your experience? Reading this book as an ace aro person yourself?

Lucy07:18

It was a really intense experience for me, honestly, because I. Didn’t expect to see myself reflected that clearly. And to see these things mentioned on every page where I was, I would say my experience reading this as someone who’s ace and aro is it was really, really intense.

It was strange, cuz I’m not used to seeing these things reflected and things. I read that much and it was. It was strange to look at the, these pages and see descriptions of things that I am usually the one who has to describe them to other people . So that was, that was kind of the first, it was interesting because I kept, um, I tend to be a very picky reader and I, I tend to, um, Like, oh, you know, that’s not quite how it is, you know, this is very, you know, but there were a lot of things in this book I was like, Hey, Hey Alice, can you please leave me alone for just like a couple pages so I can recover because this is a lot for me.

And I. It’s like looking directly into your own eyes in a mirror and thinking, okay. I, I would actually, I would like a break from this now. This is a lot, it’s, it’s a vulnerable experience in a very good way, but it was very intense.

Lexi08:01

Yeah, absolutely. And I was, I was definitely texting you during all of this.

Um, it was weird for me because I was able to understand pretty much both sides. I I’ve experienced both. And so it was, it was odd jumping back and forth. And especially because you always see one side of it, the side that gets that romantic and sexual attraction within media, like you, you always have that 99% of, of all books and TV shows seem to focus on that.

And so it’s, it was weird getting that other side.

Lucy08:24

Definitely. I think, especially since like what you’re saying, it’s, it’s always so central and I feel like characters that don’t have that as a central plot line are usually sidelined in some way. Like, it’s not, if it’s not a central part of the plot, then that character isn’t the central part of the plot.

And it was, it was strange, but good. Obviously. Good.

Lexi08:34

Absolutely. Yeah. It’s

strange, but in a very good way.

Lucy08:36

Yeah.

Lexi08:37

And. Is there anything that you really want asexual people to learn from this book?

Lucy08:41

If there’s one thing I could, I could choose from that, I think I would probably say that it’s, it’s not the same for everyone.

You know, no matter what experience you’re talking about, whether you’re talking about ace people or Allo people, or, you know, any, any variation, it’s never going to be the same. Everyone’s going to want something slightly different. And to assume that what everyone wants is the same is never going to be helpful because you’re always gonna be in situations where things are shifting.

Lexi08:59

Yeah. I think, I think ace and aro people tend to understand that a little bit better just because like, they. They know that attraction is, is different on so many different levels, but this can apply to them as well. Um, but yeah, I, I asked specifically about Allo people, because like I said, they see their version of attraction reflected in so much of media.

They may not always understand that there’s different levels and different desires.

Lucy09:15

Absolutely. Yeah. I think. I mean, if there’s one thing I’ve learned over the past couple years of thinking of myself in this way, it’s that it takes a lot of explanation and people don’t assume that that’s an option. And so to, to just assume that people, you know, that anything is possible, that there’s variations to account for everything.

it’s just an easier way to live your life no matter who you’re talking to.

Lexi09:33

Yeah, absolutely. How does this book compare to other books that you’ve read?

Lucy09:36

Any other books, any other books, any other books? Okay. I would say for me, most of the books I read, I’m not that much of a, like coming of age story person.

So this was kind of a departure for me from, from my usual choices, which also it, it made different to read it as well, because usually I kind of shy away from stories, especially the ones that have, you know, elements of representation like this. Because to me, it can feel a lot, like here’s an instructional guide on what this even means, but, you know, that’s the reality in a lot of cases, that’s how it feels.

So that was something for me to kind of get in the head space of. But once I did, it was even more enjoyable to know, like this. This is the story. It doesn’t have to always revolve around something else. Sometimes the story is just you figuring something out about yourself.

Lexi10:03

Yeah, absolutely. I have to say, I am a sucker for romance books and love stories in general.

So it was kind of fun reading a love story. That wasn’t necessarily a romance book. It definitely felt nice.

Lucy10:10

Yes,

Lexi10:10

because the story almost clear to space it didn’t say this is your spot. Stay there. It said here’s a space that you can thrive in for as long as you want with no obligations.

Lucy10:17

I know what you mean?

Yeah. It was very, it was not a prescriptive book.

Lexi10:19

Absolutely. I think I’m definitely gonna be reading this again. at some point.

Lucy10:23

Yeah. I, I would say I, I probably will be too.

Lexi10:26

So what surprised you most about the book?

Lucy10:27

It surprised me how much tension the characters had to go through with each other before everything was resolved.

I was really concerned for it at some points, even though I knew this wasn’t really a sad book going in, I was worried that some of these friendships were not going to be repaired. And I think I was, that was when I think took a lot of risks, kind of separating them that much, but then was able to bring them back together in such a way that.

It felt really rewarding. And I usually am not a fan of the kind of miscommunication relationship, turmoil, plot devices. But in this case, I think it really worked. And that surprised me cause I usually don’t like that at all.

Lexi10:49

Yeah, you pretty much took the words right. Out of my mouth. it was surprising throughout the entire book.

All of the stuff that the characters were put through and that it actually ended up working out so well. And then, like I said, I am absolutely a sucker for romance books and the tension in Loveless. Was very similar to the tension in a lot of romance books, but I actually realized that it seemed like the stakes were higher in this one because I’ve, I’ve always believed that platonic love is the base structure of any other form of love.

Like you really have to have that platonic love for any other form of love, to really work out. And so if that platonic love wasn’t there, everything else was just gonna fall. I was, I mean, I wasn’t reading in a chair. I was, I was reading in like a bean bag, but , I was essentially on the edge of my seat the entire time.

Lucy11:16

And it’s hard to do that in a bean bag.

Lexi11:17

yes, very

Lucy11:19

. Yeah, I would totally agree. I think it’s not easy to, you know, when you, when you see romantic tension like that, I absolutely agree. Very tense. And I, I love stories like that too, but to see not just the people that you care about, but pretty much the only people that you have in your immediate vicinity that you really care about to see that put at risk like that.

And in such a fundamental kind of unsalvageable looking way. It’s very, very tense. Very scary.

Lexi11:33

Yeah. Definitely. One of the most stressful books I’ve read in a while. but again, in a very good way. Yeah. One of my questions was which character do you relate to most? And I think we both know that you relate to Georgia.

Lucy11:41

Yeah. This is gonna come as a shock to you. . But, uh, weirdly the character I, I saw myself in the most was the one who was, you know, trying to push herself to the motions of society, doing her best to figure out how to even interact with her friends and people who aren’t her friends. Yeah. Weirdly, weirdly for me, it was Georgia.

Lexi11:53

Yeah. That’s quite shocking. Lucy. I never would’ve guessed. Yeah.

Lucy11:55

Who could’ve seen this coming right.

Lexi11:56

I think I really saw myself in Georgia. There were a lot of aspects. Definitely the whole, oh gosh. The, the intro scene, which with all of the couples making out around the fire. Yep. Was I’ve experienced not the making out part, but the, “oh, don’t go over there. There’s

people making out.”

Lucy12:08

Oh my God. Yeah, that scene was really great. I like, I love that. I thought that was so funny.

Lexi12:12

That was fantastic. It was hilarious. So I’ve, I definitely related to stuff like that with Georgia. I actually,

Lucy12:15

and can I just be,

Lexi12:16

yeah, go ahead.

Lucy12:16

Can I just really quickly be before we move on from that scene? I think the funniest thing to me was to see her trying to finally kiss her crush. And then the thing she’s most upset about when it doesn’t work out is that he’s ruined her favorite jacket. I thought that was. So funny and to see that so early on, I was like, oh, okay.

Lexi12:26

I would be upset about that as well!

Lucy12:27

Me too. That’s why I, I saw that happen and I was like, oh, okay. There I am.

Lexi12:30

. Yeah. Like if the kiss happens or not, for me, it’s like it’s whatever. And that’s definitely the demisexual coming out. But like, if you ruin my favorite jacket,

Lucy12:35

the favorite one?

Lexi12:36

Yes. I don’t think I can, that’s be friends anymore. I genuinely don’t.

Lucy12:39

Okay. So I’ll know what to watch out for. I’m going be so careful around your jackets.

Lexi12:41

Yes. If, if you so much is spill on my favorite

denim jacket,

Lucy12:44

don’t worry. I’ll steer clear. Oh, but yeah.

Lexi12:45

So anyway, go, go ahead. Yeah. I definitely relate to some of Georgia without a doubt. I actually think I also relate a bit to Jason.

Lucy12:50

Yeah. Okay.

Lexi12:51

Because, and this will be news to you.

Lucy12:52

Okay.

Lexi12:53

I absolutely felt more than platonic love for friends before and done nothing about it, because I knew that it wasn’t going to be, felt the same.

Lucy12:58

Well, that is news to me. Well, I can see how that would make you relate to Jason.

Lexi13:00

Definitely also the fuzzy jacket.

I, I can’t the fuzzy jacket.

Lucy13:02

I love it.

Lexi13:02

Yes. Yeah. I, I have a favorite. It’s not actually a jacket. I have a favorite comfy that I wear anytime it’s cold.

Lucy13:06

Oh my gosh.

Lexi13:06

So relate to that. Jason,

Lucy13:07

there you go. oh yeah. Yeah. I think one thing about all these characters is they felt like real people they’re easy to relate to. They were really fleshed out.

Lexi13:11

Yeah. And, and they weren’t perfect, but it wasn’t necessarily that they weren’t perfect in a specific way that like ruins. The character, it really felt like, oh, this is my friend. And maybe they’re annoying sometimes. Or they have this habit of forgetting to water their plant

Lucy13:20

now who could that be about but yeah,

Lexi13:22

so stuff like that, where it’s like, oh, this character really is human. And it’s also someone that really. It could be someone who I’m friends with,

Lucy13:27

right? It’s not these like big, all consuming, fatal flaws. It’s sometimes this person makes mistakes and sometimes it’s a mistake in this kind of way, and they can move on from that.

Lexi13:32

And then at the same time, when there was a really big mistake, it wasn’t just glazed over it. Wasn’t just ignored. It was. And it showed that some people can forgive more easily and some people need a little more time. And sometimes it really is just time that they need, it’s not, oh, you have to follow all of these steps. They need that apology. And then they need to process.

Lucy13:43

Absolutely. Yeah. The amount that things were talked about and like talked through all these problems that they were having. That was really great for me in this book. I feel like if they hadn’t done that, if it had just been, you know, I’m sorry. Okay. Let’s move on together. It would’ve felt the, the friendships would’ve still felt too fragile to me because that’s what I was afraid of going into those big fights that they were having. These are big cracks that you’re making. And if you don’t talk about them, they’re not gonna go away.

Lexi13:56

Yeah, absolutely.

Lucy13:57

I was worried going into this book. I really have. I have kind of a thing. I’ve tried reading books that, that have, you know, ace and aro representation before, and each time I’ve, I’ve thought too much like, oh, this is just like, here are some dictionary definitions of what each of these things mean. I fall so cleanly into each of these definitions and to see it defined that way, but in a, in a way that allows for flexibility and individuality. that was what really made this so nice to me. I think that was really what the selling point.

Lexi14:14

Yeah, for sure.

Would you recommend this book to a friend and why?

Lucy14:17

Oh, I absolutely would. When you have an identity like this, it’s hard to express it to other people. It’s just not a thing that a lot of people can understand if they’re Allo, especially, and sometimes even if they’re not , but I think to kind of have it through someone else’s eyes like this through Georgia’s is a way of maybe getting this across in a really sympathetic and understandable way. And it’s just a great story. There’s really no part of this that I wouldn’t recommend to a friend.

Lexi14:31

I know it was already on your reading list, but I definitely recommended it to you. I’m pretty sure I pestered you as soon as you had access to it. So,

Lucy14:35

oh, absolutely. Yeah.

Lexi14:36

I, I think that says it all.

Lucy14:36

I heard that it was coming out. Yeah. I heard that it was coming out and I immediately put, put in a hold at my library. It’s like, let me get my hands on. This is fast as possible.

Lexi14:42

. So absolutely helping people understand is a big part of this book. I also think that everyone can kind of take away that love story to yourself, aspect of it, because it’s not just learning to love your identity, but learning to love the, the different parts that really make up your identity. Because it also, it wasn’t just about a girl who’s asexual and a romantic. It was about an introvert and a freshman at college, someone who was trying to discover the. So it’s really just about loving everything that makes you who you are.

Lucy14:59

Right. Everyone should read that. Yeah. Everyone should read that. I absolutely agree. And reading that kind of a thing makes it easier to understand other people too, because everyone’s got something going on like that. And even if it’s not the same story, it’s, it’s something, right?

Lexi15:07

Yeah, absolutely.

Lucy15:08

It was a very kind story in that way. I think.

Lexi15:10

Maybe they see themselves in another character, someone who, who wasn’t Georgia.

And so it can help them see themselves through someone else’s eyes.

Thank you. Wonderful readers for joining us today. Hopefully you enjoyed this episode’s discussion of Loveless and get ready to tune in for the next one. That’s all for now on books by the fire. Happy reading.